mina tõestasin eile endale, et ei õpi vigadest. ka oma elu suurimast veast, mis tehtud 11 aastat tagasi. võiks juba rohkem elukogemust ja mõistust peas olla… ja teada, kuidas maailm toimib… ja teada seda loogikat… ja ma ju tegelikult teangi… aga ikka mängisin end jälle kätte. vastu tahtmist.
ma ei saa enam kunagi puhtaks.
NF-tüübi algne jutt:
Now..let’s look at the F-side. What’s important to us? Understanding people. It’s what we specialize at. And let’s face it, that means we’re generally better at it than you (yes I’m being arrogant ) Which also means that to you, MBTI is probably useful as a basis to categorize people on and deal with them, and that’s it for you. We find that MBTI is very much lacking on this, as we go a lot deeper.
So, plz, I know you didn’t mean to generalize as much as we might have feared initially, but reread and consider what I said before. If you are to really understand and avoid the conflict with the NF before you at any given time, you need to invest just a little bit in understanding where the individual is coming from, and make sure you do not fall for the trap of: Oh, it’s an ENFP, so that’s why s/he does that, I get it. It’s ok to do that..but…just to be sure, before you judge it that way, check. Coz they may just pleasantly surprise you. Consider it a tip from the ‘specialists’ in this field. (and yes, even NFs get tempted by taking the shortcut coz they’re being lazy, and yes, it does yield a way higher probable chance of misjudging)
NT vastus… puhas kuld! PUHAS KULD, MA ÜTLEN!!!!
From an admitted ‘non-specialist’…
Do you see why we might need to do this sort of typing? The reasons we might resort to what you might see as gross stereotyping? That while the instrument may be extremely lacking in your estimation, it would be exceedingly helpful in ours? Much like someone who for whatever reason does not drive a car may see cars as clumsy nuisances, does that mean that automobiles are not still effective and useful for many people?
Things have to make sense for us. Notice the word “have” there. It is quite literally a psychological need for things to make sense for us. When things don’t make sense, it causes psychological pain, and this is not an exaggeration. What other types experience as “frustration” our types experience as a combination of rage at not understanding, pain at the barriers put up in our minds and our seeming inability to use it as normal, and agitation at not being able to get past something that should be so simple. We see human interaction being incredibly simple for so many people. It’s not so simple for us, as our ways of thinking and interaction run contrary to many people in the world. Other people frustrate us because they consistently do things other than what seems logically consistent, and then when we ask for an explanation (to establish a rationale within our minds and reconcile the situation with what we already know), people become upset and act like we’re cold and uncaring.
Then we learn about something like MBTI or other typing systems. We learn that people’s brains are structured as to interpret information differently through different cognitive processes, and it all starts to make sense. Suddenly, rather than seeing an action as being stupid and irrational, we see it as “oh, he’s much more of an intuitive-feeling type, and consequently, it’s the emphasis on (internal values/group cohesion) that’s informing his decision-making, rather than hard analytical logic. That makes sense”.
The problem with miscommunication comes when your assumption is that through this process, we’re making value judgments about the person. This is particularly the problem with the English language (and perhaps, all languages in general), as while we NT’ers are very good at understanding shades of meaning, we find the shades of meaning more important than the shades of emotional impact. So where I would think “oh, he’s being very NF right now”, meaning more “he’s acting in a way that is consistent in what I know to be characteristics of the NF type, and consequently these actions can be interpreted as such to maintain a logical cohesion”, you may interpret it as “oh, this guy thinks I’m just a box, a type, a stereotype. He has no interest in understanding me as an individual”.
Which often in reality, isn’t very true. The NT type, particularly in my own understanding of it, generally has only three categorizations of people they interact with – “trusted”, which includes friends, family and other respected people; “neutral”, which includes unknown people and public figures (as we only understand their actions, and cannot understand them as people with such a small set of information – thus, why there’s a lot of iconoclasm and little hero-worship); and “untrustworthy”, which most people would qualify as enemies; however, we have a tendency to think there is an explanation for their actions beyond personal dislike (which can often be incorrect).
Once in the “trusted” category, there’s very little one can do to remove themselves from it beyond out and out blatant betrayal. In most situations, you’ll get the benefit of the doubt, and if we’re angry at you, we’ll still get over it. You’re not going to descend in our estimation – at worst, we’ll be annoyed with you for a little while. That doesn’t mean we don’t like you, or like you less than we did before.
So if we make an observation about you, please, please do not interpret it as indicating that we think any less of you, or are dehumanizing you, or trying to fit you into some sort of a box. We’re just trying to make sense of actions whose rationale does not seem immediately apparent. We want to know you better, understand who you are, and understand what motivates you.
I understand that this can be somewhat uncomfortable, because we’re not inclined to settle for the surface explanation. Just keep in mind that we’re not judging, we’re learning.
Too often the point is made that we’re the ones in the wrong, and we need to change our actions. I do not disagree that we need to be more conscientious of how our words impact people; hell, everyone could use that lesson. That being said, please do not make the assumption that we intend any sort of ill-will in the things that we say. As painful as insensitivity can be to you, so is frustration for us. A little tolerance and understanding can help everyone in this position.
ma olen üldiselt sedalaadi asjad privaatseks teinud või parooli alla pannud, aga kuna see on lihtsalt niivõrd hea, jätan teistele kah lugemiseks – ehk saab mõni veel naerda.
foorumist teema you know you are a NT when…
* Your conversations are extremely scattered and jump between a broad variety of seemingly unrelated subjects, leaving 99% of people confused.
* No matter how much you subjectively like someone, you can’t help but objectively tear them apart in your mind every time they do something illogical.
* You say something jokingly, and someone takes it seriously and objects, and you spend the next 15 minutes arguing your statement as if it wasn’t a joke.
… then remember afterwards to point out that it was, in fact, a joke.
* You know you are an ENTP when people try to knock you down a notch with really lame crap so you start advising them on better insults to use! (ma olen seda teinud! korduvalt!)
* If you are capable to study for 18 hours in a single day and then study a different subject to relax.
* you’ve at least had the URGE to do calculus for fun. (ka seda on tehtud. ausalt.)
* You know your an xNTP if you contemplate an elaborate scheme, plan, or theory that could do great things, but not only cannot put it to action, you can’t even describe it to other people properly.
* You categorize the utility of a person not according to a good-bad dichotomy, but according to probabilities and evaluations of the relative propensities for people to carry out actions and decisions which correspond and/or deviate from your personal belief system.
* You get can get extremely heated in debates…Everyone does but NTs do this to a beyond belief extent. I’ve seen them hit tables, get angry, continue the debates in the bathroom. I talked with an NT once and we disagreed he literally “hunted” me down to continue the debate. (… süüdi!… ja püüa siis seletada, et asi on VAIDLUSES endas, adrenaliinis, mitte inimeses… et kui teine samamoodi vastaks, oleks kõik korras…. te peaks nägema, mismoodi me nt isa või lellega oleme üksteisele asju seletanud… s.t. ilma viha ja ärrituseta, aga vehklevate kätega, valjude ja kõrgendatud häältega… vajadusel teise tuppa atlaseid, ÕS-i, entsüklopeediat või guuglit vaatama joostes (või infotelefonile helistades), kui on vaja mingit argumenti kaitsta… *podiseb)
* You roll through social situations like a square wheel.
… And you don’t really care (or notice).
* You’re thinking, and then fall asleep and then awake and then the thought occurs that you maintained thinking after falling asleep and YOU KNOW IT.
* You have a conversation with someone, not for the company, but to study the interaction as youre having it.
* You can cope with sarcasm!
You know you’re an NT when you are reading something in the news that you aren’t familiar with and then, overwhelmed by the thought that you SHOULD know what this is, you end up on Wikipedia where you read the main article first and get lost in a plethora of clicking, backing up, clicking again on something else, backtracking again, clicking three times reading up on new, linked topics and suddenly you feel the need to start mapping out where you’ve been so you dont forget to backtrack to something you were interested in and meant to go back to….
Two hours later you close the browser window feeling like you just had sex.
… and now for something completely different (ta-taa-tata-ta-ta-taaaaaaa-taraaa…) … (ja mitte, et mu otsustusvõimetus kuidagi completely different asi oleks)
mul oleks vaja vastu võtta üks hariduskäiku puudutav otsus… ja teha seda üsna kohe. nädal aega tagasi mulle korraks endale tundus, et otsustasin ära. aga siis ei olnud asi nii reaalne, vaid mõte minemisest-mitte-minemisest oli pigem hüpoteetiline. nüüd on asi väga reaalselt käes – SAISis tuleb vajutada üht või teist nuppu.
kusjuures siiamaale olen ma jõudnud ilma igasuguse enda motiivita. pigem soovisin ma tõestada, et niikuinii sisse ei saa. noh, arvestades, et ilmselt kandideeriksin ma edukalt TÜ mitmesaja-aastase ajaloo kõige madalamale keskmisele hindele, kui säändene võistlus tehtaks. või ka, et, kuigi A-ga hinnatud, oli mu töö täielik …, eksole, pealegi väga humanitaarne loodusteaduslikul alal. üldse võtsin terve ülikooli jooksul suuna üsna humanitaarsele poolele, vältides maksimaalselt kõikvõimalikke keemiaid ja füüsikaid (ojaa, neid oleks saanud kolm korda rohkem võtta), pühendudes see-eest KMH-le, KKJS-dele, ökoteknole jne… ning kandideerisin ma TTÜ-sse.
sisuliselt nägi asi välja nii, et minu koostööpartnerile (ülikooli õppejõule) saabus ühel konverentsil valgustus, s.t. ta leidis töö teema. vaatas mulle otsa ning viis 2+2 kokku: töö teema + e. = e. läheb õppima. punkt. mina nihelesin ja leidsin, et ei viitsi, et sisse niikuinii ei saa ja üleüldse. ü. arvas, et ei huvita, viigu ma paberid sisse. või muidu.
siis mõtlesin, et eks ma siis võin ju ü. rahustuseks paberid sisse viia ning katsed läbi teha. sisse ei saa niikuinii. sain. raibe.
s.t. mitte, et mul midagi sissesaamise vastu oleks, ma lihtsalt pole siiani suutnud otsustada, kas ma tegelikult tahan. ühtpidi võttes on see akadeemiline karjäär mulle praktiliselt hõbekandikul ette kantud, mis viitab sellele, et oleks kõige targem tegu asjast kinni haarata. teisipidi võttes… kas on õige asja teha, kui mul pole õiget motivatsiooni?
viska või kulli ja kirja…